Thank you, dear Adam, for taking up this vital question. I am honored to have provoked it. Some points:
1) Though Sayers is indeed called “long and slim” (by Vera Brittain among others) during her Oxford years, her height is simply not mentioned, as far as I have been able to discover, by anyone who knew her later in life. As can be seen in photos of the young DLS, she had a long and elegant neck — one nickname for her was “Swanny” — and I suspect that that gave the impression of greater height that she actually had. (It may be relevant that Brittain says “long” rather than “tall.”)
2) By contrast, people often commented on Christie’s height throughout her life. (Ditto Virginia Woolf, who by all accounts was an inch shorter than Christie.)
3) It’s worth noting that — as best I can discover — the average British woman of the AC/DLS generation was 5’2”, so 5’8” was significantly out of the ordinary.
4) People often shrink as they get older. For instance, thanks to some lumbar and cervical issues that have led to compression, I am a full two inches shorter than I was when I was 20.
5) As Phil Edwards says, none of the photographs you post give us unambiguous evidence.
My conclusions from all this? That in her youth Sayers was no taller than 5’6”, more probably 5’5”, and that she may well have lost an inch over the years.
Also, a note for casting directors: By the tme of the founding of the Detection Club in 1930, GKC and DLS were both quite fat and Christie was well on her way to the stoutness that she would keep for the rest of her life. (There’s a letter from DLS in the Fifties in which she says of Christie “She’s even bigger than I am!”) I sort of like the idea of three Brits about the size of the people on the Axiom in WALL•E lumbering about in voluminous wool outfits solving crimes.
5'4" in the fourth photo, from 1952 (I agree none of the photos in this post are particularly reliable in an evidentiary sense: we need a proper set of Usual Suspects style mugshots of all parties, really) seems about right to me which, if we assume Sayers lost an inch in the aging process, would give us 5'5" in her prime. Taller than the early 20thC British female average to mean that people could be forgiven for calling her "tall", though not I think actually very tall.
When I first saw the picture, I thought it was pretty accurate and was impressed with the accuracy... But that's because I thought Christie was on the right and Sayers on the left! Now I can't look at it without frowning
I think there is higher audience awareness of Chesterton's look as iconic because of, among other things, The Sandman's Gilbert (especially after Stephen Fry's portrayal). Sayers is practically unknown visually to today's audiences, and they probably know Christie only by her older look reproduced in back cover photos - so there is a greater sense of license that may be taken.
That's a good point. That Christie is perceived to be so dowdy (though in actuality in her youth she was adjudged as far more attractive than Sayers) probably does have to do with her late-life image. But it's puzzling to portray Sayers as a sex-bomb in this way: there's nothing in *her* reputation, which is whodunnits, churchiness and Dante, to licence such a thing: except that I suppose a TV drama needs attractive characters for viewers to fancy as well as homely ones (and American TV drama needs only attractive characters)
J. R. Ackerley, when he worked as a producer for the BBC, oversaw a recording session with members of the Detection Club and commented that Christie was "surprisingly good-looking," though "feeble" in her performance. But, he added, "anyone in that series would have seemed feeble against the terrific vitality, bullying and bounce of that dreadful woman Dorothy L Sayers."
Exactly. I think "Sayers" just fulfilled a prerequisite role - as well as some nebulous archetype of a glamourous Bloomsbury circle sophisticate because of Harriet Vane.
Kit Lambert is a prolific writer for UK television: he's done epiosodes of Casualty, The Coroner, EastEnders (this will mean little if you're not a British TV viewer). This gig comes off the back of his multiple series of "Father Brown", where Lambert went from adapting actual Chesterton stories to inventing his own and spinning a kind of ongoing soap-opera out of the supporting characters. He also wrote episodes of "Death in Paradise", a crime show set in the west indes: not my favourite TV, I must say.
Which is to say, I don't anticipate this series having an especially razor-sharp script.
I don't think we can derive anything from Veronica Turleigh's apparent height sitting down in photo #4, particularlly given that in photo #5 she's clearly bending at the knees in a half crouch. I think you should trust photo #2, which – unless J.W. Welch was really unusually small – puts Sayers in the 5'6" to 5'8" range. Not incompatible with photo #4, either, if you take into account that Sayers is furthest from the camera and is leaning forward a little. (It's a shame that whoever was taking that publicity shot didn't think to say "And stop slouching, Miss Sayers! Come on, head up, shoulders back!", but of such contingencies is history made.) There's a lovely French and Saunders sketch in which DF is 'doing' Alison Moyet, only to be interrupted mid-song by the real Alison Moyet; DF is not slight, but Moyet towers over her. I see DLS as more in the Moyet area than the French.
On the original point (and photo #1) I agree with AJ, of course – quite bizarre. The casting wouldn't even work the other way round, AC being less glamorous than their version of DLS and DLS taller and more imposing than their AC.
The perspective in #4 is an issue, I agree. But if Sayers is 5'8" then Brandt would be unusually tall, 6'5"-ish (though Lambourne is standing closer to the camera, Brandt and Sayers are more or less side-by-side) -- not impossible, but certainly unusual.
It's possible Sayers had longer legs that Turleigh, and so was taller; but I'd say their torsos are quite similar in length. If so the question would become how tall was Turleigh?
Thank you, dear Adam, for taking up this vital question. I am honored to have provoked it. Some points:
1) Though Sayers is indeed called “long and slim” (by Vera Brittain among others) during her Oxford years, her height is simply not mentioned, as far as I have been able to discover, by anyone who knew her later in life. As can be seen in photos of the young DLS, she had a long and elegant neck — one nickname for her was “Swanny” — and I suspect that that gave the impression of greater height that she actually had. (It may be relevant that Brittain says “long” rather than “tall.”)
2) By contrast, people often commented on Christie’s height throughout her life. (Ditto Virginia Woolf, who by all accounts was an inch shorter than Christie.)
3) It’s worth noting that — as best I can discover — the average British woman of the AC/DLS generation was 5’2”, so 5’8” was significantly out of the ordinary.
4) People often shrink as they get older. For instance, thanks to some lumbar and cervical issues that have led to compression, I am a full two inches shorter than I was when I was 20.
5) As Phil Edwards says, none of the photographs you post give us unambiguous evidence.
My conclusions from all this? That in her youth Sayers was no taller than 5’6”, more probably 5’5”, and that she may well have lost an inch over the years.
Also, a note for casting directors: By the tme of the founding of the Detection Club in 1930, GKC and DLS were both quite fat and Christie was well on her way to the stoutness that she would keep for the rest of her life. (There’s a letter from DLS in the Fifties in which she says of Christie “She’s even bigger than I am!”) I sort of like the idea of three Brits about the size of the people on the Axiom in WALL•E lumbering about in voluminous wool outfits solving crimes.
5'4" in the fourth photo, from 1952 (I agree none of the photos in this post are particularly reliable in an evidentiary sense: we need a proper set of Usual Suspects style mugshots of all parties, really) seems about right to me which, if we assume Sayers lost an inch in the aging process, would give us 5'5" in her prime. Taller than the early 20thC British female average to mean that people could be forgiven for calling her "tall", though not I think actually very tall.
Chesterton's own sense of self was rather less dapper than (a) he would have liked to have been and (b) Miles Jupp here: https://medium.com/adams-notebook/g-k-chesterton-as-he-would-like-to-have-been-and-as-he-was-3e0f62f17d48
When I first saw the picture, I thought it was pretty accurate and was impressed with the accuracy... But that's because I thought Christie was on the right and Sayers on the left! Now I can't look at it without frowning
I’m very happy to learn about this tv show :)
I'm just glad they decided to have GKC in the thing at all- he gets ignored or misjudged too much.
As my old friend Bram Kawa notes, he is in the v popular comic series "The Sandman", and in its recent TV version, played by Stephen Fry.
https://profadamroberts.substack.com/p/how-tall-was-dorothy-l-sayers/comment/325109672
I think there is higher audience awareness of Chesterton's look as iconic because of, among other things, The Sandman's Gilbert (especially after Stephen Fry's portrayal). Sayers is practically unknown visually to today's audiences, and they probably know Christie only by her older look reproduced in back cover photos - so there is a greater sense of license that may be taken.
That's a good point. That Christie is perceived to be so dowdy (though in actuality in her youth she was adjudged as far more attractive than Sayers) probably does have to do with her late-life image. But it's puzzling to portray Sayers as a sex-bomb in this way: there's nothing in *her* reputation, which is whodunnits, churchiness and Dante, to licence such a thing: except that I suppose a TV drama needs attractive characters for viewers to fancy as well as homely ones (and American TV drama needs only attractive characters)
J. R. Ackerley, when he worked as a producer for the BBC, oversaw a recording session with members of the Detection Club and commented that Christie was "surprisingly good-looking," though "feeble" in her performance. But, he added, "anyone in that series would have seemed feeble against the terrific vitality, bullying and bounce of that dreadful woman Dorothy L Sayers."
Exactly. I think "Sayers" just fulfilled a prerequisite role - as well as some nebulous archetype of a glamourous Bloomsbury circle sophisticate because of Harriet Vane.
more curious about the words. this could only work if the scriptwriters were first-rate wits, which is unlikely but we can hope.
Kit Lambert is a prolific writer for UK television: he's done epiosodes of Casualty, The Coroner, EastEnders (this will mean little if you're not a British TV viewer). This gig comes off the back of his multiple series of "Father Brown", where Lambert went from adapting actual Chesterton stories to inventing his own and spinning a kind of ongoing soap-opera out of the supporting characters. He also wrote episodes of "Death in Paradise", a crime show set in the west indes: not my favourite TV, I must say.
Which is to say, I don't anticipate this series having an especially razor-sharp script.
I don't think we can derive anything from Veronica Turleigh's apparent height sitting down in photo #4, particularlly given that in photo #5 she's clearly bending at the knees in a half crouch. I think you should trust photo #2, which – unless J.W. Welch was really unusually small – puts Sayers in the 5'6" to 5'8" range. Not incompatible with photo #4, either, if you take into account that Sayers is furthest from the camera and is leaning forward a little. (It's a shame that whoever was taking that publicity shot didn't think to say "And stop slouching, Miss Sayers! Come on, head up, shoulders back!", but of such contingencies is history made.) There's a lovely French and Saunders sketch in which DF is 'doing' Alison Moyet, only to be interrupted mid-song by the real Alison Moyet; DF is not slight, but Moyet towers over her. I see DLS as more in the Moyet area than the French.
On the original point (and photo #1) I agree with AJ, of course – quite bizarre. The casting wouldn't even work the other way round, AC being less glamorous than their version of DLS and DLS taller and more imposing than their AC.
The perspective in #4 is an issue, I agree. But if Sayers is 5'8" then Brandt would be unusually tall, 6'5"-ish (though Lambourne is standing closer to the camera, Brandt and Sayers are more or less side-by-side) -- not impossible, but certainly unusual.
It's possible Sayers had longer legs that Turleigh, and so was taller; but I'd say their torsos are quite similar in length. If so the question would become how tall was Turleigh?
Fascinating! Thank you.